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Thread: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

  1. #11
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Dear “lawguy”:

    Sorry for the delay, but it only now, on this frigid Sunday afternoon, that I've had time to sit down and truly absorb the full ridiculousness of your first and only post (as "lawguy", anyway) on this forum.

    My prior comments were only regarding the implied warranty that the CPA imposes on retailers.

    But for some reason you’ve decided to broaden this discussion into other areas, in which you lack even a fundamental understanding.

    Take consumer purchases, for instance. You don’t seem to even know how they operate.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    when you pay for your item at canadian tire or another store you are entering a legal contract. that contract is you agreeing to the terms of that specific product.
    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    in a fair exchange of goods, such as you walk in to a store, knowingly purchase a heater (example) pay for it in full, and take delivery of the goods immediately you entered into the sellers terms of sale …
    This is completely wrong. (Plus, how would I 'unknowingly' purchase something??)

    There are no terms that the buyer must adhere to.

    In your heater example (are you sure you don't want to use 'pressure washer'?), what are these special “terms”? No, there are none. After I’ve paid for the heater, I own it, and can do with it what I choose, as far as contract law is concerned.

    Perhaps you meant that the explicit manufacturer’s warranty may contain terms the buyer must follow for the warranty to remain valid?

    Speaking of which, let’s review your “expert” opinion on manufacturers’ warranties:

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    if the product is defective you are now bound by the warranty.
    This is not just wrong, but completely backwards. It is the manufacturer (not the buyer) who is bound by the terms of the explicit manufacturer’s warranty.

    (As well, the manufacturer and retailer are bound by the implied warranty of the CPA.)

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    the retailer determines the warranty for the product
    It is my understanding that the manufacturer determines the explicit warranty for the product (although this might be negotiated with a specific retailer, such as lessening the terms of the explicit warranty in order to offer it at a lower price)

    ----

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    davidler i don`t know where you have obtained your facts
    Well, now you do: the links I my previous post on this thread.

    If you have bothered to do any research at all, I expect that you’ve now read from the many professionals who have a greater understanding of these issues than you and I, and the one's I've referenced all state that a customer in Ontario is entitled to a refund from the retailer for a defective item.

    This is true regardless of whether the package has been opened, the item used, or any statements in the manufacturer’s explicit warranties or store policies.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    i work in law, in ontario. i have a ton of experience in consumer law
    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    trust a legal expert


    So, let me get this straight:
    • You’ve only posted here once (at least, under the name “lawguy”).
    • You know very little about retail sales and warranties in general.
    • You know next to nothing about consumer protection legislation.
    • You claim to be an "expert" with "tons of experience", yet clearly know less than even a newbie.
    • You jump in here, make a lot of false claims, and talk a lot of crap about me, personally.
    Yet you think it is ME who is "arrogant"?


    My only objective is to help innocent customers get the legal remedies to which they are entitled.

    Your only objective seems to be persuading people that these rights do not even exist, or if they do exist, to not use them.

    You must be affiliated with the laughable “CT Me”, who tried to peddle similar rubbish here, not too long ago.

  2. #12
    Posted by an unregistered user Angry CT Guy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    DavidLeR, there are many examples of customers returning items as defective, because they used it, didn't like it, had buyer's remorse, found another one cheaper somewhere else, the item is now on sale and they paid full price, and the list goes on. Under your interpretation of the Ontario CPA rules, the buyer (committing fraud by stating an item is defective, when in fact it is not) would be entitled to a refund. I've read through the entire CPA rules and they are open to a lot of interpretation. There is nothing that specifically says a customer is entitled to a refund on truly defective items, but there seems to be recourse if a warranty is not honored.
    As always people are entitled to their own opinion, but "buyer beware" is a common phrase, and I've never heard of "seller beware" before. What you are stating as your opinion just doesn't make common sense, in my opinion.

  3. #13
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Under your interpretation ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    As always people are entitled to their own opinion...
    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    What you are stating as your opinion ...
    You, CT-Me and 'lawguy' all seem to have the same basic (yet inexplicable) misunderstanding.

    You have all claimed at one time or another that these are merely the opinions and/or interpretations of DavidLeR. This is not at all correct.

    My recent posts have only providing a summary of the numerous links previously provided (see "https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/ge....html#post2553") to articles by reputable people who say things like this:
    "a retailer is liable to a purchaser for a defective product"
    "retailers have to sell you a product that works"
    "there is an 'implied condition of merchantability' (freedom from defects) "
    And what have you provided?

    Only your own opinion, which also must fall under "buyer beware".

    And, of course, no references. Not even one. Not even a quote from the Act itself.

    You claim to have actually read the Act, as have I, and I agree that it is far from clear. That's why it's worthwhile to consider the opinions of the experts I've quoted, and to contact the relevant Ministry for one's own specific case.

    I see you've also raised another crop of out-of-scope topics, such as fraud, change-of-mind returns, and manufacturer's warranties. I'll save those for another day.

    I may be overly suspicious, but my guess is that you are likely just another unscrupulous retailer intent on protecting your bottom line at the expense of the innocent customers, whom you admit to seeing as just a bunch of scam artists.

    But, that's just my opinion.

  4. #14
    Posted by an unregistered user CT Me / Lawguy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    davidler
    i have done some reading back to previous posts you refer to, including debates between you and ctme and now the unregistered no name person so that i can understand your position. unregistered has the correct interpretation in his her most recent post. nowhere does any legislation or act state that a store must give a refund for anything. the protection act applies if a stated warranty is not honoured by the store or maker of a product. thats why its called a protection act, to protect a customer against breaking the rules of their selling agreement. it is not called the customer can have whatever they demand act lol

    your talks of warranties are partially correct. u say a heater, so we can use that example. yes the manufacturer is bound by the warranty that is set out AND the consumer is bound by the same warranty. you argued previously about repairs and say they are illegal. they are not. if thats what the warranty says, then both customer and seller have to work within the rules of the repair for that product. if the warranty is replacement only, then both seller and buyer are stuck to a replacement for their defective whatever it may be. if the warranty states refund, then a refund is the option. if the seller does not honour whatever that stated warranty s for whatever product, then the protection act applies.

    from what i've read of your posts, you seem to believe that the warranty only applies to the seller or maker of an item and that a buyer can demand whatever they want inside or outside of those terms. you are 100% incorrect.

    you accuse me of no research, and that you've read the laws. good for you. my work almost every day is reading and interpreting legalities and advising my clients on them as it applies to their situation. i have a pretty good understanding of what holds up and what doesn't in a court of law. your interpretations, (and you stated yourself that there is a lot of open to interpretation areas) are not quite on par with what judges base their decisions on. youve done your homework by reading and researching but your conclusions seem to fit your desire to slam a store rather then the considering the same being presented to a judge.

    as a side note i noticed while reading previous posts, a significant lack of back up from other people here. when it comes to slamming the store service and quality of products , there were are tons of people jumping in to back you up. when it comes to the legalities and these acts and legislations, you seem to have no support. i wonder why that is?

  5. #15
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Oh, please - spare me.

    Next you’ll be saying that the CPA only applies to bulk sales of lumber to builders.

    I also see you are now resorting to CT Me’s tactic of putting ridiculous words in my mouth, then trying to use that as evidence that I must be wrong about other things, too.

    I've provided many links to reputable sites offering credible interpretations of the Acts. I’ve also provided links to the legislation, and a walk-through of what it says on this topic.

    My favorite statement is from Ellen Roseman: “If you find a dud in the package when you open it, don't let them shrug off their obligation to give your money back”.

    All of this evidence makes it very clear that an Ontario retailer must provide a refund for defective goods to a consumer who asks for one.

    Surely an “expert” such as yourself could provide at least a few references to sources that support your claim, and not rely on a lot of guess-work, and your own dubious opinion. If you are going to start quoting from CT Me, you are indeed desperate.

    If I thought for one second that you had any credibility at all on this site, I’d be tempted to argue with you. But you continue to shoot yourself in the foot with your absurd views on retail sales and warranties.

    Since you have zero credibility, have no sources to quote, and have not directly responded to any of my evidence, I won’t waste any more time on someone whose mind is made up, and doesn’t want to be bothered with the facts.

  6. #16
    Posted by an unregistered user CT Me / Lawguy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    davidler

    i have zero interest in developing credibility on a site which i don't plan to frequent long term. besides, developing credibility on the internet is not of any value for the every day forum user or blogger.

    anyways back to the point of discussion. as mentioned you have clearly done your homework and extensive research. i have not referenced any information or provided links because you have provided all of the accurate links. Consumer Protection Act, Sale of Goods act, those are all the correct places to go to obtain the information related to a lot of what this forum seem to be dicsussing. i was attempting to give you some credit for excellent research.

    regardless of waht you may believe, i actually was trying to help. there is a reason lawyers have jobs, to interpret all of the legal grey areas that exist in policies, contracts, rules, laws, governing bodies and a whole host of terminology that may or may not make sense to someone without extensive background knowledge. thats why law fees are high. you have the option to believe in whole or in part the information that i have provided, there will be no impact to me either way, i wont be offended. what i can tell you concretely that legally no store MUST provide a refund for anything. in the case of canadian tire, here is the statment;

    to return an item for exchange or refund, bring it to any canadian tire store within 90 days, in original condition and packaging with receipt. returns without the original receipt or packaging are accepted at canadian tire's discretion.
    (-- that portion covers a non-wanted item return -- with a receipt in original condition and package. up to ct if those two elements do not exist.)
    if a product is defective, the manufacturers warranty willl apply.
    (-- that section covers any defective product within the specified warranty period. if that warranty says repair, that's what applies - both store and buyer are bound to this)
    credit to the original method of payment or store credit will be provided as required. some exceptions may apply. your name, address and phone number will be required. this information is colleted used and retained to help prevent fraud and may only be disclosed within canadian tire. valid photo id may be required to confirm this information.
    (-- that section covers the stores right to ask for id for any return, and the option to provide credit instead of cash back.)

    when you buy ANYTHING at canadian tire, this is the contract you agree to.

    hope this helps

  7. #17
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    what i can tell you concretely that legally no store MUST provide a refund for anything. in the case of canadian tire, here is the statment;
    Once again I say: Please provide some references to back up your claims!

    If you don't, I guess I'll have to decide whether to believe you, or credible people like Ellen Roseman, and all the others.

    Oh, and thank you for posting the non-compliant Canadian Tire work-around, that they hope will help them dodge the laws of Ontario.

    But that hardly counts as research.

    As for the contract? The CPA says that nothing can negate the rights provided by it, including bogus statments on the CT web site.

    As you surely know, an illegal contract is void.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    hope this helps
    Helps whom? The stores?

    As always, I am hoping to help the customers, instead.

  8. #18
    Posted by an unregistered user CT Me / Lawguy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    i hope for the sake of whoever comes here for advice, that you are not the one providing it or you will lead many people down a path to sure disappointment.

    i am not here to prove anything to anyone. i prove things in a court of law, in front of a judge all the time. thats my job, its what i am trained and paid to do. what i provided in my last post is all that is required for a clear understanding. those rules which i copied directly from a canadian tire receipt are your contract. you entered that agreement as soon as money was exchanged for the goods. the only over and above rule is in reference to the manufacturers warranty, which would either be contained in the pacakging of the product and/or available from the place of purchase by request, all of which are also legally binding.

    if you choose to believe, and tell others that there is more to it, that's just fine, that is what open forums such as this are for.

  9. #19
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    This is directed to anyone who may be interested in learning more about the obligations of retailers in Ontario.

    I know I've written all of this here before, but a little refresher seems in order.

    First of all, the manufacturer may provide an “explicit” or “express” warranty for their products. Nobody's saying they can't, or that the manufacturer doesn't have to abide by it.

    However, this is not your only protection. A consumer is entitled to additional protection under Ontario legislation, which imposes additional obligations on Ontario retialers.

    The two main laws are:
    For instance, Section 15 of the SGA describes an additional “implied” warranty that the seller must adhere to:
    Implied conditions as to quality or fitness

    15. 2. Where goods are bought by description from a seller who deals in goods of that description (whether the seller is the manufacturer or not), there is an implied condition that the goods will be of merchantable quality….
    So, if the product you buy is defective, there is an implied warranty.

    Canadian Tire attempts to circumvent this legislation, by declaring a policy that states, “If a product is defective, the manufacturers warranty willl apply.”

    That makes it sound like you have no other recourse.

    Luckily, the SGA addresses this very point:
    15. 4. An express warranty or condition does not negative a warranty or condition implied by this Act unless inconsistent therewith.
    So, Crappy Tire is not off the hook. They have chosen to conduct business in the province of Ontario, and they should abide by its laws.

    It has been claimed that the store policy somehow forms part of a contract to which you are legally bound.

    But a store’s policy is not part of any “contract”. (But wouldn’t it nice if CT was legally obligated to follow their own policies? There would be far fewer complaints).

    These above conditions are echoed in the CPA:
    PART II - CONSUMER RIGHTS AND WARRANTIES

    Quality of goods

    9. (2) The implied conditions and warranties applying to the sale of goods by virtue of the Sale of Goods Act are deemed to apply with necessary modifications to goods that are … supplied under a consumer agreement.

    9. (3) Any term or acknowledgement, whether part of the consumer agreement or not, that purports to negate or vary any implied condition or warranty under the Sale of Goods Act or any deemed condition or warranty under this Act is void.
    There you have it:
    - CT has an obligation to meet the implied warranty of quality (i.e., free from defects).
    - CT cannot ignore this law, no matter what their policy or the manufacturer’s warranty says.
    If you wish to learn more about what these laws mean in layman’s terms, please see the links I’ve provided to various consumers’ rights advocates, lawyers and legislators have already placed on the internet, located here:

    "https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/ge....html#post2553" (post #35).

    If you would like to read my walk-through of how the CPA provides for a refund for a defective item, please see this link:

    "https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/ge....html#post2581" (post #43).

    Please note that I am not a lawyer, and neither are any of the other people who have posted on this thread (obviously).

    As I’ve written many times in the past few months, do not take my word for things. Do not take the word of people who can’t even quote from the legislation. If you really do need sound advice, you should consult a lawyer who had the appropriate training. At the very least, contact the Ministry.

  10. #20

    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Dear Ellen Roseman:

    I read with interest your web posting at "http://www.moneyville.ca/blog/post/902650--if-the-product-s-a-dud-insist-on-your-money-back".

    Regarding the Ontario Consumer Protection Act of 2002, you state, "If you find a dud in the package when you open it, don't let them shrug off their obligation to give your money back".

    This is a loose interpretation of the words contained in the act, and you are trying to twist them into a bunch of legal bullshit. You are making people think they are entitled to something.

    I work in law, in Ontario. I have a ton of experience in consumer law. If a product is defective, the customer is bound by the warranty.

    I don`t know where you have obtained your facts but I would strongly urge caution in telling visitors to your web site that they are entitled by law to something.

    Please correct your web page at your earliest convenience.

    Signed,

    LawGuy, Legal Expert



    So, it shouldn't be long, now. I'll let you know the minute Ms. Roseman corrects these glaring errors in her forum.



    I will also be sending similarly worded letters to:

    1 - Miller Thomsom regarding their bullshit, “A consumer is not bound by any consumer agreement that does not comply with the Act and regulations.”

    2 - O'Connor MacLeod Hanna, LLP, regarding their bullshit, "The primary remedy available to a consumer under the Act is the consumer’s right to cancel an agreement.”

    3 - The Legislative Assembly of Ontario, who posted even more bullshit, especially "If a consumer agreement is cancelled, the supplier must refund payment".

    I've get this all fixed up right quick.

    You're welcome!

    LawGuy

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