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Thread: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

  1. #31
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    up until your last post you have maintained that the law entitles a customer to a refund.
    Yes, and I’ll continue to post that.

    Let me say it again: the Laws (acts of legislation, criminal code, etc.) are always in force.
    Nothing in a Contract or Policy can negate them.

    There’s a wealth of evidence that the Ontario SGA and CPA require a refund for a defective item, so this is true regardless of any Contract or Policy.

    In fact, any Contract that is contrary to any law is completely void.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    is it correct in understanding that you are now saying that the sellers policy is what stands
    No, that is not really what I am saying at all.

    As I wrote before, the Policy can’t “stand” if it’s against the law.

    Nor do I think it “stands” as part of a Contract, for the many reasons I’ve given. But, like I said, I don’t have any reference to back me up; just my take on contract law. Maybe someone else can contribute? Beyond just, “No, it’s not”?

    Are stores bound by any laws to follow their own Policies? Well, if the Policy contains weasel-words (like “Exceptions include but are not limited to the following” or “we reserve the right to refuse any returns”, then I guess the customer should have checked first, so the store maybe can’t be held to it.

    However, if the Policy is clear that the refunds or exchanges are to be provided, and the customer relied on that policy when making their purchase, yet the store refuses to abide by it, then I think it would count as an Unfair Practice under the CPA, and the customer could rescind the contract and get their money back.

    The CPA says, "13. A representation that the transaction involves or does not involve rights, remedies or obligations if the representation is false, misleading or deceptive."

    I’m not saying the Policy is a term of any contract. I’m only saying that this practice is covered by the CPA. However, that is just my interpretation, and I have no other references to back that up. Just the wording of the CPA.

    There has been a lot of discussion on other threads and forums about stores Policies that require recording of personal information before providing a refund or exchange. This is a grey area, because the law doesn’t require the store to provide a change-of-mind refund or exchange at all. However, there are privacy laws that may be violated by recording (rather than just viewing) this information.

    Not many Policies limit the options available to a customer. Generally the just put a limit on the ‘extra’ the store is offering, such as time limits on change-of-mind returns, rules on price-matching, and requiring a receipt.

    However, Crappy Tire is the only store I’ve found that actually says the customer doesn’t have a legal right, when they really do have that right.

    The Policy says, “If a product is defective, the manufacturer’s warranty will apply”. While the warranty surely does apply, it’s not the ONLY warranty that applies. This is contrary the law in Ontario, and cannot be enforced. If a contract contained that term, the contract would be void.

    Quote Originally Posted by lawguy View Post
    don't take this as a shot, i am trying to engage in the discussion reasonably
    No, I don’t see this as taking a shot at me.

    For that, it’d have to be something like:

    davidler has a loose interpretation of the words contained in the act and is trying to twist them into a bunch of legal bullshit thinking he is entitled to something.
    you seem to have no support. i wonder why that is?
    i don't know if the problem is that your ego is too big ... or that you are insecure

  2. #32
    Posted by an unregistered user Angry CT Guy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    I'm all for healthy debate, but stating your opinion and interpretation is nothing more than just that...debate. DavidLer, if you are looking for references to refute your opinion of the CPA rules or Sale of Goods Act, there are plenty which you could have posted links to just as easily, but you are one sided in your interpretation to further your beef against Canadian Tire for whatever personal reason you have. I'm not sure if you trust in the Better Business Bureau, but here is their posting on refunds and exchanges and legalities at Refunds & Exchanges - BBB News Center.
    I think they are a reputable source from Ontario and they refute your argument. You also seem to like Ellen Roseman's blogs.....although she is a consumer advocate and media personality, she rarely does more than state her opinion to further her own empire (books, blogs, radio show, etc.). She has an excellent blog going called "do your homework before buying extended warranties".
    Here is one of her comments "How many times will repairs be done before a product is replaced? Ideally, you want an extended warranty that has a three strikes and your out policy. This means if you have a lemon that keeps needing the same repair, you get a brand new product the 4th time you bring it in".
    Wow, that kind of goes against another of her posts that you keep quoting to further your side of the debate. Why wouldn't she quote the CPA or sale of goods act and say you're entitled to a refund. By the way, Ellen Roseman has never quoted a passage from either and doesn't even provide their link on her website.
    In closing (my side of the debate), every single return policy of major retailers.....Canadian Tire, Walmart, Zellers, Home Hardware, Home Depot, Target, and others have some variation of the same return policy.....do you think that these large corporations, with a multitude of lawyers in their employ, don't have their asses covered every which way and sideways?
    I know that they do.
    Smart businesses will try and accommodate their good customers so that there is a win-win scenario....perhaps you just weren't a good customer in the opinion of your store.

  3. #33
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    I'm not sure if you trust in the Better Business Bureau, but here is their posting on refunds and exchanges and legalities at Refunds & Exchanges - BBB News Center.
    I think they are a reputable source from Ontario and they refute your argument.
    Um. Are you aware that I already quoted for that page?

    Just three days ago??

    Here's the link to my post: "Canadian Tire doesn't honor their return policy?"

    I know it’s a lot of work to scroll down to the bottom of the BBB site, but here's what you'll find:
    “Regardless of a store's policy, if the goods you have purchased … are defective, you have every reason to expect the store to provide a suitable substitute or refundThe laws in Ontario require a store to make good in such cases.”
    (I only wish the site was clearer on whether it's the customer's choice, or the store's. Other sources say it's the customer's.)

    I appreciate your efforts to form a good argument, but here's a hint: look for sites that back up your claim, not mine.

    (But they are hard to find. Trust me; I've looked, and not found any that are clear.)

  4. #34
    Posted by an unregistered user Angry CT Guy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    The BBB article is very clear....it is the store's option as to how they remedy a defective item purchased by a customer. They are very clear that returns of any type are at the sole discretion of the retailer and that they are not bound by ANY law to the contrary. They offer return options as a customer satisfaction strategy, but are not legally bound to do so. How about at least being truthful. Draw whatever conclusions you want from YOUR interpretation, but a store is not obligated to provide a cash refund as their only remedy....period.

  5. #35
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    every single return policy of major retailers.....Canadian Tire, Walmart, Zellers, Home Hardware, Home Depot, Target, and others have some variation of the same return policy
    An interesting claim. Every single one, huh? Your research must have taken a lot of time. Care to provide a list?

    This is something else I’ve earnestly looked for, but never found: a variation of “If a product is defective, the manufacturer’s warranty will apply” on the site of a major retailer, including the ones you mentioned. I’ve been through this already with CT Me, back in November.

    Do you have any links to any sites with a variation such as, “Defective items cannot be returned”?

    Or, are you just “stating your opinion and interpretaton”, so no evidence is needed? (I.e., you can say whatever crap you like, and nobody is supposed to challenge you.)

    Regarding Ellen Roseman, she’s been getting refunds for customers on a daily basis for years, and knows far more about this topic than either of us. To suggest that she would give flawed advice to consumers in order to sell more books is ludicrous. She’s on the board of CLEO, for God’s sake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    perhaps you just weren't a good customer in the opinion of your store.
    Believe it or not, I’ve actually never had a problem with a return at Canadian Tire, so maybe I’ve been “good” after all?

    But I’m sure that the elderly couple I saw getting screwed over on a defective pressure washer were good customers, too.

    Perhaps I’m a good customer that they’ve now lost forever due to their illegal policy.

    However, if by “good” customer you mean someone who’s willing to cave in to whatever illegal and exploitive policies a large corporation decides we should be limited to, then I guess being a “bad” customer isn’t such a bad thing to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    you are one sided in your interpretation to further your beef against Canadian Tire
    I’ve got a beef with CT because of they are taking advantage of vulnerable people.

    Plus, it doesn’t matter what my motives are, if my assertions are correct. If they suck, they suck. Period.

  6. #36
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Unregistered:

    I’ve given this some more thought. I think I now have a better idea of what you are saying.

    As I wrote before, the BBB site says, “expect the store to provide a suitable substitute or refund”.

    Again, it does not say, “at the sole discretion of the customer”, but neither does it say, “at the sole discretion of the retailer” (or similar wording).

    I can see why you might have doubts about adding “discretion of the customer”. However, I think it’s reasonable to infer this, based on the wording of all the other sites I’ve referenced, and the wording of the Acts themselves.

    This is not simply my interpretation, as you claimed.

    It’s the interpretation of consumer advocates (whom you clearly despise), lawyers working in this field, other experts on these topics, and the people at the Ministry of Consumer Services with whom I have spoken.

    As for your version, I have not seen any credible justification for it whatsoever. Not by you, other people posting here or on other sites, or in any web pages.

    But let's imagine for a moment that you are right, and the retailer has the option: exchange, or refund.

    What does the CT site say?

    Does it say, “If a product is defective, a suitable substitute or refund will be provided, at Canadian Tire’s sole discretion”?

    Strangely, no. Not at all.

    Just, "the manufacturer’s warranty will apply.”

    How very odd, that the corporation you claim is so well informed, so law-abiding, and so customer-focused, would fail to do something even you stated is "very clear" from the BBB web site, as required by "The laws in Ontario", i.e., provide an exchange, at the very least.

    Instead, CT simply washes its corporate hands of any obligation whatsever, for every item in the entire store.

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to forward your discovery to the team of CT corporate lawyers, and advise them of how they should update their policies and web sites? I'm sure they'd listen to you.

    (Plus, I still know I'm right on the 'refund' thing.)

  7. #37
    Posted by an unregistered user CT Me / Lawguy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidLeR View Post
    Unregistered:

    Instead, CT simply washes its corporate hands of any obligation whatsever, for every item in the entire store.
    exaggerate much? ct assumes no obligation for any item they sell? lol hundreds of stores, billions of dollars, no responsibility. tall tale sir, very tall tale

    just a thought about all of the legalities, policies etc...specifically the absence of the wording "at the discretion of..."
    it is the absence of those specifics that bury a court case quickly. with the wording "manufacturers warranty will apply" that implies that the customer will not get to make the decision. in fact i have never seen any policy of any kind of sales or service that allows the customer to do whatever they want.

  8. #38
    Active Member DavidLeR's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Hey, "lawguy".

    How have you been? Got tired of typing that name already?

    How's your research into contract law going? Find out anything about "offer and acceptance", yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    ct assumes no obligation for any item they sell? lol hundreds of stores, billions of dollars, no responsibility. tall tale sir, very tall tale
    Sorry. That should have been, "for every defective item in the entire store".

    But I'm also sure you know I'm not talking about what a store might decide to do as an incentive to customers. No, I'm talking about what a store is required to do by law, but refuses to do.

    Heck, even Unregistered managed to find proof that CT is required by law to give at least an exchange on EVERY item in the store (no more "Repair Only" warranties, right?).

    And all the credible sources on the subject agree that a full refund is required, if the customer requests one. (No, not the sky, the moon and the stars. Just the refund, thank you!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    it is the absence of those specifics that bury a court case quickly.
    Um, I think you are confusing the BBB web page with the actual laws. Pretty sure there's a big difference. "Law Guy".

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    with the wording "manufacturers warranty will apply" that implies that the customer will not get to make the decision.
    Yes, it does indeed imply that. And it is, indeed, against the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    in fact i have never seen any policy of any kind of sales or service that allows the customer to do whatever they want.
    Yeah, me either. And who would even type such an absurb sentence? Oh, yeah: YOU did, back on the 25th! Remember, 'lawguy'?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    as a customer you don't have ultimate right to anything anytime just because you want it.
    But your high-school debating trick isn't going to work this week, either.

  9. #39
    Posted by an unregistered user Angry CT Guy's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Again, you are entitled to your opinion....it is a free country after all; however be at least truthful or accurate at least. Wrong or right, a retailer is not legally obligated to provide a refund at any time....they don't even legally have to post their return policy. They do have to remedy a defective item, but how they do that is up to them.....reference the BBB article. Some people are a glass half empty, glass half full type.....I assume you to be the latter. I don't believe that the elderly couple was being "screwed" over....maybe they didn't like the remedy to their defective product, but in the words of Ellen Roseman....they could have avoided a problem by asking what the warranty entailed, prior to purchase.
    Reference to other company's return policys are readily available on the web...they all state that repair, refund or exchange are available, but make no mistake.....that is at the discretion of the retailer. Some people can't read instructions, follow instructions or really just have buyer's remorse....the manufacturer knows this and protects themselves accordingly.
    DavidLer, you are set in your opinion and I have no desire to try and change it (there are those who will argue black is white, etc.).....but can you give us even one example where someone has successfully won a decision in court using your interpretation of CPA or Sale of Goods acts?

  10. #40
    Posted by an unregistered user Guest-0276's Avatar
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    Re: EVOLVE TREADMILL,TEMPO -Canadian Tire ,3516 8th ave NE Calgary - CAN'T BE RETURNED!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    Again, you are entitled to your opinion....it is a free country after all; however be at least truthful or accurate at least. Wrong or right, a retailer is not legally obligated to provide a refund at any time....they don't even legally have to post their return policy.
    See maybe that's another reason why lawyers get a bad reputation...because every dip shit claims to be one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    DavidLer, you are set in your opinion and I have no desire to try and change it (there are those who will argue black is white, etc.).....but can you give us even one example where someone has successfully won a decision in court using your interpretation of CPA or Sale of Goods acts?
    Didn't we kill this fuckin cockaroach last year ?

    What for? For those of you following, he's already proven again and again how lame and damaging your interpretations are - with proof. What have you brought to the table? Useless, toothless BBB and the back of the receipt and your retail clerk opinion that what the law says is NOT what the law says, but instead what you and CT says is - THE LAW. Summed up small enough for the first flush?

    So looking back, what have other iterations of CT douchebags brought to the table? Nothing! All you do is flap gum, get bitched slapped and run your mouth again. What are you looking for now? More egg on your face?

    So by interpretation of the CPA, you mean judges following the strict definition of it and not being loosey goosey like you and CT would have us believe and tremble in fear of your supposed 'correct legal assessment on the back of a piece of paper used for screwing customers'. OK. I'm not a lawyer and have 10 seconds so here's two examples.

    Plaintiffs
    KATARZYNA ALICJA MATONI and
    KAREN E. THOMPSON
    - and -
    Defendants
    C.B.S. INTERACTIVE MULTIMEDIA INC., c.o.b. as CANADIAN BUSINESS COLLEGE; CANADIAN BUSINESS SCHOOL INC., c.o.b. as CANADIAN BUSINESS COLLEGE; MAZHER JAFFERY and ROSELYN CALAPINI

    JOHANNES H. TEN THYE
    v.
    1268273 ONTARIO LIMITED carrying on business as AUTOPARK MITSUBISHI

    Theres thousands more. What do you bring to the table dip shit?

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