Cream puff...the wizard's handing out brains today, better git yourself one.Originally Posted by Unregistered
Cream puff...the wizard's handing out brains today, better git yourself one.
There are two major ways Canadian Tire’s policies are worse than other retailers (both of which violate the laws of Ontario):
1) The “Repair Only” Policy, which means if it’s dead-out-of-the-box, they refuse to provide a refund, or even an exchange. (This is especially bad when the customer isn’t warned before they buy the item - “Too late!”)
2) The overall “If a product is defective, the manufacturer’s warranty will apply” statement. It means that there is no minimum period in which you can return a defective item; it could be zero.
I could keep calling this the “If a product is defective, the manufacturer’s warranty will apply” Policy, but I’m just going to call it the “No Minimum Time” Policy.
Unregistered has claimed several times that CT's policies are not unique, including these remarks:
I challenged Unregistered to provide some proof of that claim i.e., that these retailers /have “variations” of the “Repair Only Policy” or the “No Minimum Time Policy”, for defective items.
(I suppose I could have insisted on evidence from "every single major retailer", but that seemed excessive)
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First, a few notes:
1 - Many stores have an ‘escape clause’ reserving the right to refuse any return. That’s not what I’m debating. (I’m talking about the basic policy, not the fine-print loop-holes.)
2 - Almost all stores have a similar list of specific, non-returnable item, such as underwear and (don’t ask me why) ammunition. I'll agree that list is "similar".
3 - Items marked “As-Is” or “final sale” are generally non-returnable.
4 - The topic is not whether a retailer is allowed to offer a repair or a manufacturer’s warranty; only whether the retailer will (like CT) refuse to provide a replacement within some time period.
5 - An “exchange or repair” policy isn't the same as CT’s “repair only” policy, because CT even won’t consider an exchange.
So, let’s not waste any bandwidth debating the above topics.
Now, I must admit, I was a bit harsh in my marking. For instance, if Unregistered didn’t provide the proof, then I didn’t bother going to search for it (most of the time). After all, Unregistered had volunteered the following:
So, let’s have a look at how Unregistered did on this quest for readily-available references to “Repair Only” or “No Minimum Time” policies (or their equivalent).
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Walmart:
Nothing even close to a “Repair Only” policy has been demonstrated. Exchanges and refunds may be offered.Things like media “must be returned unopened”, but how can you ‘repair’ software?
Nothing resembling a "No Minimum Time" policy. (I even took a peak at thier site at "Customer Service / Return Policy - Walmart Canada - Save Money Live Better". Minimum is 14 days).
That's a Double Fail.
Zellers:
Nothing provided.
Another double fail. (I said I was harsh!)
Home Hardware:
(All that re-typing makes me nervous, but let’s assume it’s accurate. They aren’t doing too well!)
For “Repair Only”, there’s nothing there. They even say, “replace”, if the product “qualifies”. So, Fail.
For “No Minimum Time” Policy, it looks like Unregistered may have actually stumbled across something. Let’s give the benefit of the doubt, and say, “Success” (pending further research).
Single Fail (but part marks for the "no minimum time")
Home Depot:
For “Repair Only” Policy, the only item with a “repair” reference is after 30 days. Fail.
For, “No Minimum Time” Policy, I was surprised to read in Unregistered’s post that Home Depot’s basic policy was simply, “we reserve the right to refuse...”. That wasn’t my experience in their stores. So, I decided to check out the web site for myself at "Return Policy | Home Depot Canada".
Here’s what I found:
“Returns with an Original Sales Receipt Within 90 Days of Purchase: Any purchase made.”I could ‘cry foul’ on Unregistered misrepresenting HD’s policies, but I’ll let this one slide, and just say:
Double Fail.
Target
Not even doing business in Ontario. Another Double Fail.
Lowes
It might be unfair to allow Unregistered to slip in another store, but maybe it’s to make up for the missing Zellers text?
For “Repair Only” Policy, there is nothing there on defective items or repairs. Fail.
For “No Minimum Time” Policy, I was tempted to just write this one off as “fail”, since nothing relevant was quoted. However, I decided to do some checking. Guess what I found?
The Canadian web site ("Home - Lowes.ca | Home Improvement Warehouse | Do It Yourself | Renovations | Contractors | Lowe's Canada") doesn’t even give a policy!
Guess where Unregistered’s text came from? The U.S. site at "http://www.lowes.com/cd_Returns+and+Refunds+Policy_33243642_".
And guess what I found? Does it say:
"You may return it for refund or exchange, within our current return policy guidelines"?
No! It actually says:
"you may return it within ninety (90) days** to any Lowe's store for a refund or exchange within our current return policy guidelines.”
Gee, did Unregistered accidentally ‘forget’ to include it? Did Microsoft’s ‘copy and paste’ function magically exclude those words?
Or could Unregistered be <gasp!> misleading us? No, that can’t be! I’m sure it was an accident. After all, I’d never accuse Unregistered of being “untruthful” without better evidence.
(By the way, those double-quotes (i.e., **) refer to other items have a shorter time, but no less than 7 days.)
Epic Double Fail. (Which is ironic, since it wasn’t even on the original list!).
So, here’s the final Score:
Did Unregistered prove that other retailers also have a variation of the “Repair Only" Policy?
- 6 Fails, 0 Successes.
Overall for “Repair Only”: a Total Epic Fail.
Did Unregistered prove that other retailers also have a variation of the “No Minimum Time" Policy”?
- 5 Fails, 1 Success.
Over-all for “No Minimum Time”: Major Fail.
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Final Score: 11 Fails, 1 Success.
Pretty pathetic, for a fight Unregistered decided to start a fight, but couldn’t finish it.
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Some final reminders:
- A store can’t hide behind a policy that violates any law.
- A refund by the store is required (not just a replacement, not just a repair) for a defective item.
- The store can offer a repair or exchange, or other warranty terms, but you don’t have to settle for just that.
- Even if another store sucks as much as CT does that still means CT sucks. But, none of them suck that badly.
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Now, maybe I’ve been too strict.
Maybe there’s stuff on those web sites that proves Unregistered is correct, but it was just too hard to find.
(It could be, right? There certainly seems to be a lack of copy-and-paste skills and research ability).
So, I decided to do some further checking on my own. Because, I wouldn’t want it to be said that I “refuse to accept” any evidence that might really be out there.
Therefore I will make an earnest attempt to find something (anything!) that backed up Unregistered’s claims.
And I’ll include actual links to the web pages I’ll quote from (imagine that!).
Stay tuned!
Good for you DavidLer....I was waiting for your research (although it's nothing more than accessing each retailers home page). As I said, variations of the same policy....not exact, but close enough.
Just for the record, I bought an underwater camera, made by Fuji, from Walmart....it didn't work the first time my daughter used it, 3 days later....when I went to return it....guess what? Nothing they could do....I had to deal with the manufacturer directly...after returning the camera to Fuji....all they would offer is a refurbished camera as a replacement, if I was willing to pay $40.00.
You are incorrect on your assumption that no refund and no exchange is the norm at Canadian Tire....over 90% of the items sold have an over the counter warranty for whatever from Canadian tire themselves....pretty easy to deal with. The other 10% is made up of items that the manufacturer calls the warranty on....the end. Let's use your often used Simonize pressure washer....the manufacturer's warranty on that one is....initial defects, within the first 30 days will be exchanged for a new one.....after that, it's repair only.
You are right on some items.....once it leaves the door....you are on your own for defective items and at the mercy of the manufacturers warranty. Lawnmowers are a good example....repair only, the end.....nothing the store can or will be able to do for you.
The time frames for returns vary by retailer, but your point was that they had to "refund" for defective items....replace also seems to be a pretty common solution that most publicize on their websites.
I could go on and on, but I'll let you "complete your research" , so that you are fully informed.
While you are at it, if you can pass on to the rest of us curious readers.....just one example of a court decision striking down a retailers return policy as illegal.....just one......I'm not a computer wizard, so the link would be helpful.
Lowe's Protection Plans - Lowes.ca | Home Improvement Warehouse | Do It Yourself | Renovations | Contractors | Lowe's Canada
read here, you might be interested. repair on power equipment or WITH AN EXTRA WARRANTY THAT YOU MUST PAY FOR replacement of defective. pay extra for the option to get a new one instead of wait for a repair
uh oh, davidler isn't going to like that at all
just out of curiousity, if CT and/or other major retailers with so many stores was truly breaking the law, don't you think some dirty lawyer who makes a career on frivolous lawsuits and witch hunting for companies doing wrong (see personal injury lawyers as an example) would have targetted ct and made a big to-do about it
sorry, forgot to throw in my name and some more. here's a lowes contract regarding their policy on repairs and warranties
LOWES
http://www.lowes.ca/pdf/Lowes_Protec...lans_Terms.pdf (repair, clearly stated)
WALMART
http://z.walmart.ca/content/Microsites/TC.pdf
repair or replace with new or refurbished AT OUR OPTION (clearly stated)
HOME DEPOT
BEAST - 54 Inch 22 HP 653 cc Subaru V-Twin Engine with Electric Start Commercial Zero Turn Mower - 54ZB - Home Depot Canada
this one is a product specific, have to go right to the description. at the very bottom, 2 year nationwide parts AND SERVICE. service = repair
i was originally in the mood just for a brief teaser, now in the interest of power equipment i thought i'd bring out the backhoe to bury davidler
http://www.deere.com/en_US/homeowner...antyCanada.pdf
john deere canada specific warranty states repair or replace at their discretion for residential equipment such as a riding mower. hey same warranty option as canadian tire. illegal bastards, everyone of them haha
what is learned? most retailers and companies do not post product specific or full detailed warranty policies under the general returns section. you have to click a few links and follow a few paths to get the specifics of power equipment repair policies.
conclusion: research must be in depth, not shallow assuming first link has all details. davdler and supporters, epic fail to the power of 2, for claiming unregistered suffered from an epic fail and for being wrong.
there is no credible way to refute this evidence. it clearly states these retailers repair not replace at their discretion. i expect one of two arguments back. either that all of these are illegal practices or you will go digging for some sort of difference between these policies and ct's policies and argue that they differ and ct is illegal, everyone else including your beloved walmart and home depot are within the law.
i rest my case.
davidler do you wish to cross examine? ahhhahhahahaha
I'm not kidding, that is absolutely the best fucking post I've seen on this dramarama yet. I fricken giggled all morning, especially the "cross examine" part. Love it.
Wow, if 'lawguy' was unhappy with the depth of the links I provided, imagine how upset he must be with his colleague, Unregistered, who posted no links at all, and incomplete quotes!
Hopefully Unregistered will take his/her two public spankings in stride, and not be so clumsy in the future.
I may not be as "technologically savvy" as you are DavidLer, but at least I'm honest and truthful....still waiting for that 1 example of a successful lawsuit against a retailer for their "illegal" return policy.....just need one....lots of big retailers out there....just need one.
You might want to just admit defeat on this one, and turn to something more productive, like lobbying for better disclosure, or educating the masses on how to better take responsibility for their purchase decisions. (here's a hint....if you're not quite sure you want it....don't buy it)
Aren't 'lawguy' and Unregistered just too hilarious?
Each time they lose an argument, they just pretend the argument was on a different topic, and then claim they won. An interesting strategy, but I suspect they are fooling only themselves.
And as of today, they've decided to start congratulating one-another. "Lol comical", as our old friend CT Me used to write.
Just to recap of the recent discussons:
I wrote:
In response, Unregistered wrote:
This was followed by some dubious re-typing from various web pages. As I thoroughly showed in my post, this was the outcome:
Keep in mind, the exchange was about the refund/exchange/repair policies of retailers.
But rather than sticking to that topic, they have since been posting various manufacturers’ warranties and extended warranties, and kidding themselves that this is somehow relevant to the stated policies of retailers! Priceless!
Obviously, neither of them will ever admit to being wrong. So what? I'm only out to provide evidence to people who are willing to give judge it for themselves, and make up their own minds.
Further observations on their pathetic attempts to deceive people will be posted shortly ...
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