"Repair Only Warranty" - No Refund, No Exchange

1wildhorse said:

ooh actually you said something very interesting.you said that there are many documents that state quite clearly that retailers have no obligation whatsoever to refund your money.show me ONE that actually relates to faulty goods(and no canadian tire owners handbook does not qualify)

Click to expand...

Refunds & Exchanges - BBB News Center
Service Alberta: Common Questions - Consumer Information

To make it easy for you....here's a sample of what you will read
Q.7 I bought a stereo and it doesn't work, but the store won't give me my money back. Can they do that?
A.It is important that you find out the seller's policy on repairs and returns before you buy. If the product has a warranty, review the terms and conditions to find out who will be responsible for repairs or replacement. If you encounter problems with a product and the business does not honour their posted repair or refund policy, you can file a complaint. If a product warranty is not being honoured, you can file a complaint. Depending on the nature and value of the loss, you may also want to consult legal counsel.

note: defective good. yes. you can file a complaint if the store does not honour THEIR REFUND OR RETURN POLICY. Who's setting the policy? me. If my policy says repair, it's repair. if i don't honour it, then you have legal recourse.

Should i check the other provinces or are the two biggest enough for you to understand?

Interesting how, in one post, The Moaner tries to sound like a regular hard working' Joe, but actually come across as arrogant ancpd conceited! LOL!

In facing the challenge to back his claims that "there are many documents that state clearly that refunds are not law", I expect he will once against trot out that Better Business Bureau site that quotes the out-of-date Ontario law, which was superceded by the Consumer Protection Act.

Aother imagine he will post policies about unwanted goods that function perfectly.

Let the next round of Crappy Tire's misrepresentations begin!


But in the end, we will grow old waiting for The Moaner to provide any credible evidence to back their ridiculous and misleading claims.


This is reminiscent of the claim that there is an 'easily located' list of warranties for every single automotive battery sold in Canadian, proving (somehow) that Crappy Tire sells the battery with the "Best In The Business" warranty (whatever that means). Still waiting!

And what about those claims from a year ago, that CT return policies had become more lenient, when they "changed ways that some refunds can be given to customers". Still waiting for that, too!


Lots of talk. Lots of claims.

But any credible evidence?

Nope!

Pocket-lining Troll!

funnily enough i didnt actually have any kind of predetermined outcome when i chose to start this debate.im just looking at hypotheses.and in all honesty i dont have a predetermined outcome now.what you have done(finally),is to actually do some proper digging and i applaud you for that.
i believe the crux of what you are saying hinges on what actually constitutes a defective product.
anyway you will be pleased im sure to note that none of what has been said actually has any relevent bearing on my personal case.
i bought a generator.
it quit working
i got it fixed(yes at the authorised service centre)
it quit again.(i believe there is something that says that if a product breaks down within 3 months after repair then that would constitute a defective product)
2 months later i got it back
it lasted 6 days.
not only would your company not refund or exchange the product,you refused to even repair it anymore.and THAT is what led to the complaint being filed.
the fact that the thing never lasted more than 2 weeks at any given time makes me think i could quite happily argue that it is DEFECTIVE,and even after 2 repairs already carried out on it quit yet again.at which point my statutory rights were diminished by yourselves.
i would have grounds for complaint wouldnt you agree.

ok lets look at the definition of defect.
an imperfection, quite often so great that the machinery or written document cannot be used. A car that will not run or has faulty brakes has a defect, and so does a deed in which a party who signed the deed to give over property did not have title to the property. There are also minor defects, like scratches that only lessen value, but do not make an object useless.
hmm i am going to have to study this a little longer.basically what it says is a product that has an imperfection.often something so great that it cannot be used.seems pretty obvious to me.i guess the next stage will be to break down the terms of cpa/soga to see if a defective product actually has to go for repair according to you.ill have a look later.

seems like there is some ambiguity here.
Things to Know Before you Complain - www.consumerinformation.ca
on one hand they say
The only case where a consumer has the absolute right to a return is when there is a defect in the product.
then they go on to say
Defective Products

Obviously, consumer goods cannot last a lifetime, but they should work as promised under normal use when purchased. Most consumer goods carry a time limited guarantee.

If the product is defective you can ask:

that the product be repaired;
if it cannot be repaired, that it be replaced; or,
if the product cannot be repaired or replaced, that a refund be provided.

seems like we have a grey area that you guys are only too well aware of.

YOu will note in each of the Province records that I copied the link to, it says a consumer should find out in advance of a purchase what the warranty is, who is responsible for the repair etc..... They also clearly state that no law dictates that a retailer must refund your money under any circumstance, but most retailers in the name of customer satisfaction do indeed offer refunds or credits under certain provisions. From Coast to coast the terminology used in each province is almost verbatim. I know you want to accuse me of spreading misinformation but it's not the case. Millions of dollars are at stake in the successful and legal operation of my store, and hundreds of others stores every day. Of course I work to understand the rules. Why would I Put it all at risk over a few thousand bucks which is give or take what repairs amount to every year? It wouldn't make any sense.

The rules are very clear. If the retailers and/or manufacturer sets out a repair warranty at time of purchase, that is what you get. You are not entitled to a refund if the retailers policy says so. Again, if it can not be repaired or can not be repaired in a reasonable amount of time, then yes you should be entitled to a refund or replacement. That's what I've said the whole time. IN fact if we rewind the clock, I even said that in the case of your generator, based on the details you've provided, a refund seems reasonable. Why you've turned that into a bash Canadian Tire and all of us owners, all of the employees, executives etc.... is beyond me. That's something only you can answer to yourself when you look in the mirror.

Some examples of defects and the differences between them.
A bicycle has a bad wheel bearing. It's got a defect, yes. It comes back, it gets a new bearing it goes back to the customer. No charge, covered under warranty, no refund.
A TV has a bad switch, preventing it from being turned on or off or channel change. It goes for repair, it comes back to the customer under warranty, no refund.
Snow blower has a defective drive train for the wheels. goes out for repair. Vendor can't obtain parts. Customer gets a new unit or a refund because it's defective beyond reasonable use.

As far as me being a normal Joe or not a normal Joe....well that's for each individual to decide. I don't flash around in Armani suits zipping around town in a Bentley. I hack around the golf course with whoever I get paired up with, I play beer league hockey with construction guys, fire fighters, doctors and small business owners around the area. My house is in a neighbourhood next to a retired couple that travels all winter and a young couple with young kids. I grocery shop in jeans and a golf shirt, mow the lawn, walk the dog around the park i'm just a guy. I just happened to own one of the largest stores here, and am well known for it. I have a brain made for business, and have found a company that allows me the freedom and chance to do what I do well, serve people in my community every day, and build an awesome lifestyle doing it. If you choose to hold that against me because you have a personal grudge against everything Canadian Tire, that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with your own personal limitations.

And since it would appear you've now ran into some serious opposition on your "illegal policy" claim, based on what I've posted yesterday, you're back to our return policy and battery warranty LOL come on man. You're just looking for something, anything. Let me give you a hint. Canadian Tire now offers refund cards for items returned without a receipt. Previously, no receipt typically meant, you may not get anything back.

I just continue to shake my head at why anyone on the street would operate as if they know more about my business, my customers, and the laws by which I am bound to operate within....then ME! That's like me trying to explain to Tiger Woods why he hasn't won a Major in many years. lol

<mod edit> removed duplicate content </mod edit)
I work hard and I know my fellow owners do too. Most of us are in our stores 6 days a week, and connecting in to order and things when we are home or travelling. Hard work lets me play hard too....so yah I take the luxuries I've been afforded because of my hard work. We aren't super hero's, we are humans just like you. Not everyone likes me, not everyone likes my business, but not everyone likes you either. That's human nature. I have a brain made for business, and have found a company that allows me the freedom and chance to do what I do well, serve people in my community every day, and build an awesome lifestyle doing it. If you choose to hold that against me because you have a personal grudge against everything Canadian Tire, that has nothing to do with me and everything to do with what you perceive.

It seems to me that having run into a roadblock in your illegal policy claim, given the information I've posted for you to review, you've now reverted back to your old refund policy and battery claim. You don't have to nor do I expect you to trust what I say. I just happen to know that there is not a battery warranty in the Canadian market that is longer then MotoMaster batteries. As far as the returns policy, we now offer a thing called a refund card. Same as Home Depot does. No receipt, returning a new item, you can get a refund card spendable at any CT store for the value of the item. Previously, you may not have received anything.

I continue to shake my head at why anyone, any person at all off the street as a consumer would position themselves as knowing more about my business, my policies, my stores, my customers and all of the laws that operating my business is governed by. Who on earth could possibly know more about that stuff then me... an owner. It's what we do for a living, every day. Almost 500 of us. Individually and collectively I guarantee, hands down that we have more knowledge about this stuff then you could ever inherit.

if even webpages contradict themselves how the hell do we know what the truth is?
i think i am going to churn out the page from the canadian BAR accociation again
Buying Defective Goods
There are four implied terms when you buy new goods
In BC, the Sale of Goods Act says there are four implied terms, called “conditions,” that exist in particular contracts for the purchase and sale of new items. If the seller breaks the condition or doesn’t carry out a condition of the contract, then you (the buyer) have the right to reject the goods and cancel the contract. You’re entitled to get back the money you paid, plus compensation for any extra expenses caused by the defective goods.
so assuming the definition of defective goods is correct i.e. they dont work,then it seems clear.but hell there is soooo much ambiguity here.

but hell isnt that what they invented courtrooms for?so judges can make decisions......

i have to say kudos to you mr owner.after months of just plain trolling youve actually put together some quite legible and pertinent comments.as i say there seems to be no clear answer what the actual truth to the matter is.i think it hinges on policy.see if my understanding of SGA is correct reinforced by the bar association's page,and you add in a sprinkle of CPA for good measure i.e. you cannot change the terms of SGA even if you wanted to,i.e. policy is actually irrelevent.
if we take your version(and as i say i have no idea which one is legally right,and believe me im not going to take your word for it) then when SGA says that in the case of goods that dont last for a reasonable amount of time i.e. are defective and that you can cancel your contract is incorrect,and actually policy is paramount,it is quite clear that we have reached an impasse.
like i say i applaud you,and you may indeed be correct.i hear no such comment from yourself though.

im not sure such a dispute has ever even been challenged before.unlike your 'army' of lawyers i dont have access to previous case files....

anyway there is one further point i want to make here.even if you are right here,why would people who have maybe fallen foul of the draconian policy you have in place ever choose to conduct their business EVER again?put yourself in the shoes of a customer.he/she shows up to town with the intention of buying for arguments sake a gasoline powered lawnmower.they weigh up the policies of each individual store.hmm costco never a problem,if it doesnt work properly you just take it back easy.wal mart,30 days no problem guarantee customer satisfaction.hmm canadian tire is 5 bucks cheaper.o hang on if it doesnt work they wont even take it back.if it breaks down i have to get it fixed,even if the problem keeps reoccurring,and at the end of the warranty period they are just going to tell me to fuck off.

tricky decision.walmart or costco i believe.and thats it in a nutshell.
you may not realise it now,but as more and more people fall foul of your policies they dont just keep quiet.they tell friends family,anyone who will listen.so right now yes you are doing reasonable business,but try to look 5 even 10 years in the future.successful retail is based on having customers through your doors,and your ability to keep them happy,and every time you harass or piss a customer off you dont just lose one customer its more like 5-20.enough said.

i think a key here would be to look at your annual figures and see whether or not things like gas powered equipment sales that fall into your repair only warranty are declining.

i completely sympathise with you when you recount your tales of woe of how us horrible customers take agvantage of your good nature,buy a lawnmover and return it a week later even though theres nothing wrong with it but hell they cut the grass good.or someone who has 'borrowed' patio furniture for a party.
but you surely have to realise that such people are the VAST MINORITY.is it really so important to your company to be so in the right that you are willing to sacrifice your consumer base just to prove a point?you strike me as an intelligent guy,so it is bemusing that you dont seem to grasp the concept that happy customers=returning customers.your lawyers dont care, they are being paid gazillions to play golf.and should eventually your business collapse they will flutter off to suck the life out of another company.and you seem to be oblivious to the long term damage that is being done here.shrug.

here is an example.a few months ago i went to wal mart to buy something that they had on a major sale.i think it was $150 off and was being sold at $300.water pump i believe.anyway they were out of stock and even though she grumbled a little the chick behind the desk wrote stuff out on a bit of paper.anyway i went back a month later and asked if it was in yet.they could find no record of the so called rain check,nor was the chick even at work.however when i spoke to the duty manager it took him all of 5 seconds to say that they would honour the rain check that they couldnt even find,and sold me the item at the $300 price.after the experiences suffered in your store i must admit i was surprised.pleasantly.and there you have it.customer satisfaction.i will have absolutely no hesitation returning there to buy stuff again.

and i also think you are wrong about people having it in for canadian tire.i think if you actually spoke to people it isnt canadian tire they have a problem with.most of us used to love shopping there.its the policies you have in place that people loathe and detest.....

ah but i hear you say,'we are not in the business of making friends' and that is where you are so deluded my friend.we are the very people who pay your wages.

Saturday morning I wrote the following prediction about The Moaner:

CTH8R said:

In facing the challenge to back his claims that "there are many documents that state clearly that refunds are not law", I expect he will once against trot out that Better Business Bureau site that quotes the out-of-date Ontario law, which was superceded by the Consumer Protection Act.

Click to expand...

Now, at that time, there were not yet any visible posts by The Moaner, presumably because the forum moderator has seen fit to hold The Moaner's posts until they are screened for inappropriate content.

But check what the Moaner had ALREADY written (but I could not yet see):

Owner 1 said:

Refunds & Exchanges - BBB News Center

Click to expand...

Can I call 'em or WHAT??

This is important, because it has been demonstrated, over and over again, that the BBB site (despite an update after the CPA came into effect) does not refer at all to the newer CPA, but instead contains a reference to an outdated Business Practices Act.

Such a flagrant misrepresentation by The Moaner!

Can we really believe anything The Moaner writes, if they are so quick to knowingly post mis-information?