What's the Deal with the Owners/Dealers?

It’s high time we had a little thread going on Dealers.

One thing I’ve noticed, is the number of “Troll” posts in the other threads, which sometime succeed in steering the conversation off into the weeds. We can just pick up those discussions over here, and keep our focus.

There’s an old saying: “Know thy enemy”, so this can be a good place to start.

By looking into their goals and motivations, we might have a better understanding of why they do the strange things we see, not just on this stie, but in the stores.

Here are some sample questions to explore:

- How come they are so aggressive with shop-lifters?
- Do they own the inventory in their stores, or does CTC own it?
- Why do they not stock items that are advertised in the flyer?
- Why do they keep posting such ridiculous claims on this web site?
- How come they have such a short-term view of customer service?
- Are any of them actually rich? How many? How long does it take? Can it be done honesty?
- Are there really any that aren’t so bad?

Plus, we can have fun picking apart their flawed logic, misrepresentations, and false claims, without worrying about disrupting the other treads.

Owner 1 said:

You have been very clear that your conclusion is more and more Canadians are choosing not to shop at Canadian Tire.

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This is obviously true for any large business in a competitive environment. Businesses lose customers over time, plain and simple. The former customers decide not to shop there anymore, go to the competitors, or simply no longer find it convenient.

The only way this could NOT be true, is if some of the existing Boycotters, suddenly decide to resume shopping at Crappy Tire. I.e., the boycotter resume beign customers. But this number would have to exceed the number of customers who are at the same time becoming Boycotters. See how it works? It all hinges on ... math!

The next question is then, "Are the number of Boycotters increasing FASTER for Crappy Tire, than for other similar stores?"

That's not so easy to measure. But the number of people posting their boycotting pledges right on Crappy Tire's own Facebook page (as well as elsewhere on the internet) should certainly be cause for concern to any smart business owner, who has 'hitched his wagon' to the Canadian Tire brand.

Owner 1 said:

.... information show the exact opposite of what you claim. For decades now, sales continue to grow.

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Interesting ... but irrelevant.

The point of the "Boycott" count, is not to track the total number of CT shoppers, or even the net sales.

It's to track a small sample of the many, many Canadians who have stated publicly on various web sites their intention to boycott CT.

Not so hard to understand, if one understands business and, ya know, that thing called 'math'.

Oh this thread should be interesting. Can't wait to see what you cook up about dealers, all of which you've never met or spoke to.

Just one important note about math and customer counts. A customer gets upset and opts to shop with a competitor and not with Canadian Tire any longer. Yes that does happen and we lose that customer and a competitor gains that customer and the related revenue and profit. You entirely missed the other part of that sequence of events. A customer goes to Walmart, NAPA or TSC Store and leaves disappointed for whatever reason. That same customer now go seeks a competitor to shop at. Guess who that could be. Canadian Tire. So a now ex customer of Walmart, now becomes a customer of Canadian Tire.

Now I know that you'll have a tough time with this concept, but that's based on the fact that you think CT could never gain a customer from a competitor. Then here's where that damn math comes in again. When sales go up, that means one of two things, or both happened. Either more customers came in and shopped, or the same amount of customers or less customers spent more money. So considering our sales track record over the last year, five years, ten years, twenty years etc..... anyone who understands business can make a reasonable conclusion that we are gaining more then we are losing.

Simple really

The "Join The Boycott" thread records a small fraction of the growing number of Canadians who has pledged to never shop at Crappy Tire again. See https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/g...-who-pledge-never-go-canadian-tire-again.html

Recently, The Moaner claimed that CT's quarterly reports state this same statistic:

Owner 1 said:

... You spend all this time of yours counting the customers that boycott Canadian Tire. You have been very clear that your conclusion is more and more Canadians are choosing not to shop at Canadian Tire. ... the data is posted for you four times a year. As a publicly traded company, we announce results.

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So, where in the Quarterly Report is this data on the number of Canadians who "are choosing not to shop at Canadian Tire"?

Well, I couldn't find it, and I look it over every time it comes out.

The Moan was asked (yet again) to back up this claim, but so far, we haven't gotten an answer. I wonder why?

Oh, well. I guess we can just add this to the growing list of things that The Moaner 1 claims to have access to, yet never provides.

This includes information like:

- a new way for customers to get refunds from CT.
- details on the warranties of every automotive battery sold in Canada.

I'm sure there are others I've since given up on - I'll add them to this list when i remember ...

More fascinating hypotheses, from The Moaner.

Owner 1 said:

Oh this thread should be interesting.

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I agree it should be interesting to try to see the world through the eyes of the owner/dealer/moaners.

If this latest post is any indication, it is a bizarre world indeed.

Owner 1 said:

Can't wait to see what you cook up about dealers ...

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Right off the bat, we are into paranoia, regarding customers and their intent.

When does an honest attempt to understand become an attempt to "cook up" things? Apparently when you are an owner/dealer moaner!

Owner 1 said:

... all of which you've never met or spoke to.

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Yet another oddly turned phrase.

If the Moaner/Owner is stating that no one consumer who posts here have "never met or spoke[n] to all" 500 or so dealers, then that is almost certainly the case - but who has, outside this closed circle of colleagues? Why state the obvious?

But if the Moaner/Owner/One's strange phrase actually means "None of you have ever met or spoken to an actual dealer", then that is obviously false. With so many of them, both active and retired, scattered across the country, it is almost certain that most of the consumers have at least spoken to at least one of them, at some point.

(In fact, it's likely that we met or spoke to one while trying to pry a refund out of their tightly held fist!)

Very strange actions, indeed. An ambiguous phrase, that is either plainly true, or plainly false. In either case, why post such 'dribble' at all?

But I'm very glad that there is at least one Dealer/Owner who is willing to throw so much kindling on this fledgling fire!

I also see that most of The Moaner One's most recent post isn't at all 'on topic', because it isn't even about the Dealers/Owners.

Instead, it's mainly about Canadian Tire's financial state, which are best addressed in this thread: https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/g...ts-chat/790-crappy-tires-financial-state.html

But there are some interesting statements about "math" that deserve some enlightenment ...

There has been a lot of interest lately in the customers who announce they will boycott Crappy Tire. See this popular thread:

https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/g...-who-pledge-never-go-canadian-tire-again.html

And how does The Moaner respond?

Owner 1 said:

Just one important note about math and customer counts.

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So, not only is this comment posted in the wrong thread, but The Moaner is trying to steer the discussion away from the number of boycotters, and instead steer it towards “customer counts”.

Owner 1 said:

Now I know that you'll have a tough time with this concept, but that's based on the fact that you think CT could never gain a customer from a competitor.

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And, the usual misrepresentation about what consumers have written on this site: I’m pretty sure nobody here ever claimed that Crappy Tire “could never gain a customer from a competitor”.

Very interesting indeed!

Why would an alleged owner try to pull one over on us like this?

Why even bother posting here, if they won't discuss the topics at hand, and instead try changing the subject all the time?

These Moaner/Owners really are strange and inexplicable creatures, indeed.

Unless maybe it's all just simple Trolling ....

Owner 1 said:

Just one important note about math and customer counts.

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Owner 1 said:

Then here's where that damn math comes in again.

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Owner 1 said:

…

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This Moaner person seems, well, 'mathematically challenged'.


They write a lot about “math”, but don’t provide any.

You see, mathematics involves numbers and operations, like addition, subtraction, multiplication, etc. You get the idea (even if The Moan doesn't).

So, where are these numbers? The Moaner provides none.

What mathematical operations were used? None. Supposedly there's some addition (counting) going on somewhere. But, The Moaner1 doesn't mention it at all!

So, I guess we are expected to blindly accept The Moaners baseless conclusion, that they are somehow, magically gaining more customers from their competitors, than they are losing to those same competitors.

Yet all of this is to be taken simply on faith, without even one iota of the much-claimed “math”.

Well, I do know where there’s some math on this site.

It currently stands at 338, right here: https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/g...ever-go-canadian-tire-again-37.html#post10460

LMAO!

The Moaner certainly likes to post a lot of crap.

But it would be interesting if they'd actually follow through on some of the data they claim to have.

In addition to the recent claim that CT tracks the number of boycotters (i.e., Canadians who have vowed to never shop there again), I wonder if The Moan has any "math" (i.e., actual numbers) to back up this claim:

Owner 1 said:

A customer goes to Walmart, NAPA or TSC Store and leaves disappointed for whatever reason. That same customer now go seeks a competitor to shop at. Guess who that could be. Canadian Tire. So a now ex customer of Walmart, now becomes a customer of Canadian Tire. ... here's where that damn math comes in again .... anyone who understands business can make a reasonable conclusion that we are gaining more then we are losing.

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So, is The Moan claiming that there is data on this, too? On the number of Canadians who are boycotting OTHER chains, and therefore could possibly begin to reluctantly shop at Crappy Tire?

Some things to keep in mind:

- The return policies at Crappy Tire have all been shown to be inferior to other major Canadian retailers. Worse for unwanted goods, and especially worse for defective goods. You just NEVER hear about someone boycotting, say, Home Depot, because of a "Repair Only" policy. So, the people who boycott over return policies, will be going AWAY FROM the inferior policies at CT, and TOWARDS the superior policies at all the other retailers.

- What about in-store, pre-sales service? It has been widely reported that CT has the worst customer service in Canada. They were second only to Zeller, who no longer exist, so CT is now in the "top spot" (or is that "bottom spot"?). So, anyone boycotting a retailer for poor customer service, will be mainly going AWAY FROM the inferior service at CT and TOWARDS the superior service at other retailers.

- And what of automotive service? Even CT's own Facbook page is clogged with story after horror-story of incompetent, incomplete, over-priced and unnecessary repairs. Again, people will be mostly moving AWAY from CT and TOWARDS competitors.

So, this theory that somehow Canadians are going to give up superior policies, service and repairs, and somehow move en masse to The Red Triangle of Crap, is ludicrous.

And, even if some dissatisfied customers somehow down-graded their retailer-of-choice to Crappy Tire, how long will it be, before they, too, are mis-treated enough, that they seek out one of the many superior stores/shops in their area?

actually the argument that some may move away from walmart to CT may have some merit in the short term....but as soon as the mover realises what the horrible policies of CT are,it wont take long for him/her to do a U-turn.

actually on this subject id like to ask a question for mr owner(as if he will ever answer it properly anyway).what do you think of the policies your store gives i.e. the repair only policy?do you think thats a fair policy for customers?and if you were a customer yourself how would you feel if you bought something in theory brand new and it didnt work and it had to go for repair?would you be completely happily doodly about it?

The data is simple. If our sales grow year over year over year which they do (facts & math again) then one of two things are happening, or both. MOre customers are shopping at Canadian Tire or customers are spending more money at Canadian Tire.
Or both are happening. It's that simple. It can't be disputed.
If we were as bad at everything as you attempt to make us seem, neither of those could possibly be true. Not last year, the year before or the year before. or the decade before. There's truth in numbers.

1wildhorse said:

actually on this subject id like to ask a question for mr owner(as if he will ever answer it properly anyway).what do you think of the policies your store gives i.e. the repair only policy?do you think thats a fair policy for customers?and if you were a customer yourself how would you feel if you bought something in theory brand new and it didnt work and it had to go for repair?would you be completely happily doodly about it?

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lol properly answer the question? by this you likely mean answer it in a way that suits your beliefs? Well that won't happen but i'll answer anyways.

Part 1. Brand new items should never be sent for repair at the customers penalty. Depending on the item there is usually a 7-30 day over the counter exchange. If it's DOA they will get a new one over the counter during that period, and we deal with the repair. Please do not try to entertain some rant that it never happens and blah blah blah. Has it happened, probably. Does it happen every time, absolutely not.

Part 2. Once a customer has gone beyond the initial period, I see no issue with a repair only policy. Gas powered equipment is the most commonly misunderstood and poorly maintained item among general household users. It's usually only active for 6 months a year, and then has to be seasonally maintained and stored correctly. A large percentage of gas powered equipment sent for warranty repair, is diagnosed as poorly maintained. Spark plugs not changed, fuel left in machines for the off season, air filters not changed, fuel filters not changed.
The second part of that is that most of the gas powered machines have fairly long warranties. So after 2 years use, customer comes back wants a new item, not happening. They go for repair. I can speak to my town and my town only but most of my repairs are back in customers hands same week. Hardly an inconvenience. As I've explained a million times, it's no different then a warranty on an automobile. Something breaks, you drop it off at the stealership, they fix it under warranty. You're without a car for the day, or two or three until the part comes in to fix it, then you get your car back.
It's WAY bigger of an inconvenience to be without your ride, then your lawn mower. lol

In the case of multiple repairs on the same item as is the case with your generator story, If a unit goes back for the same problem three times, another solution should be found. It should also be mentioned that despite your personal beliefs, retailers of gas powered equipment all have the same repair policy. A ton of proof has been offered to this point, which seems to piss you guys off more but oh well. I also know this is the case because the owner of the local repair depot and I communicate on a regular basis and I've been there many times. There are always warranty items from other retailers right along side ours in his shop.

Now go ahead, pick it apart.

Owner 1 said:

The data is simple.

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This post is mostly about CT's financial state, and not Dealers.

So, I think I'll respond to it over here:

https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/g...ts-chat/790-crappy-tires-financial-state.html

But regarding Dealer/Moaners and their strange claims, I'd like to point out:

- Terms like "data", "math" and "numbers" are being tossed out, but guess what's missing from the post? Any data, mather or numbers!
- The Moaner/owner doesn't seem to know much about retail (i.e., demographics, immigation, marketplace, revenue vs profit, etc.)

An interesting question, and a strange response.

This is a good thread to discuss the weirdness of the alleged owner/moaner.

But for the technical details of the devious Repair Only policy are bested picked apart in this thread:

https://www.canadiantiresucks.net/g...ranty-no-refund-no-exchange-82.html#post10507

Owner 1 said:

In the case of multiple repairs on the same item as is the case with your generator story, If a unit goes back for the same problem three times, another solution should be found.

Now go ahead, pick it apart.

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yes another solution was found.your store refused to even repair it any more,which is what led to the court case....

what my belief that as a customer i should be treated properly?unfortunately im no longer allowed to discuss the specific details of the court case as i have now settled the matter,but if you cannot put yourself in the shoes of genuinely disgruntled customers then in all seriousness you are the one with the problem not me.

- How come they are so aggressive with shop-lifters?
- Do they own the inventory in their stores, or does CTC own it?

Theses are related. They do own the stock and it's purchased from CTC. So any losses comes right from their pocket. On average, for every item that's stolen, they have to sell 20 products just to break even.

- Why do they not stock items that are advertised in the flyer?

Because flyers are produced in the East and distributed nation wide. Unfortunately, sometimes product doesn't arrive or the warehouses on the west coast have run out/have items on standing order/have already discontinued them. Stores should offer rainchecks unless they're discontinued or a promo product (codes start usually with 199 or 99)

- How come they have such a short-term view of customer service?

The stores that I work for haven't, but I can see why people may think that.

- Are any of them actually rich? How many? How long does it take? Can it be done honesty?

Yes

- Are there really any that aren’t so bad?

Some are better than others for sure, but you're going to find that anywhere. There are positives and negatives to every job no matter what field. Retail is especially hard for a number of reasons. I've worked at two different stores, totaling 5+ years and the one I'm at now is pretty good.

Owner 1 said:

Brand new items should never be sent for repair at the customers penalty.

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The usual cryptic statement.

If might sound at first like they never force the Repair Only policy on a customer for an out-of-the-box defect.

But if you look closely, they wrote "repair at the customers penalty".

Strange word: "penalty".

You and I would think, "The customer is being penalized (a penalty) for having to get the DOA item repaired".

But what the Moaner/CT-Me/Lawguy really means (based on past experience) is the don't think the customer should have to "pay" for that repair.

Sneaky, huh?

Thanks for the response, 2013LJM.

2013LJM said:

- Why do they not stock items that are advertised in the flyer?

Because flyers are produced in the East and distributed nation wide. Unfortunately, sometimes product doesn't arrive or the warehouses on the west coast have run out/have items on standing order/have already discontinued them. Stores should offer rainchecks unless they're discontinued or a promo product (codes start usually with 199 or 99)

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That's interesting, but it doesn't explain why they are getting away with Bait & Switch, which is illegal.

The stores are required by law to provide 'reasonable quantities' of product that are advertised for sale.

If an item is in low supply, can't be delivered on time, or has been discontinued, surely this is sheer incompetence on the part of CTC to advertise things they know can't be supplied properly. Yet they go ahead and do it, knowing that consumers will be drawn into the stores by products they can't actually get.

There are things the store can do if there are supply problems such as you described, but these aren't being done, either. For instance, there notices being posted, and the Rain Checks aren't being honoured. In some cases, they aren't even offered (like seasonal or discontinued items).

Any additional insights??